RE : (Newbie Hello! / ZX Advice Please?)

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hi folks,

I am totally new here and I was kindly advised to give this site a look by a couple of members on You-Tube (via their Sinclair video upload threads). I am aged 46 and from the Wirral in the United Kingdom.

Anyway, I am very new to computers myself. I have a Win7 and a Win8.1 PC's (which I use for work and music etc). But, because there was no real computer lessons when I was at school (other than 30 x pupils crowded round a BBC comp which nobody actually got to touch!), I wanted to learn something about computers and their LANGUAGE and thought about buying a very early computer to learn on. I do remember the SINCLAIR SPECTRUM from around 1982 as myself and two younger sisters shared (or rather fighted over!) it purely to play GAMES on. But that's as far as any usage we got out of it went (though of course it was amazing FUN at the time!).

So,I wondered if I bought one of these cheap on eBay would that be a good thing and helpful to learn BASIC language on it? Something that will start me off so that I can get more confident and understand how computers work in general etc? And is the LANGUAGE still applicable now, or is it totally outdated and obsolete?

Many thanks in advance guys...

Best,

Paul David Seaman

[sirmorris]

Howdy

There is a lot of advice around. 'Start with a Pi' 'Start with Scratch' etc. I've been through this myself and I found it a really tough thing to do. You need to balance a child's need for simplicity with ease of use and, for better or worse, the kids of today need instant gratification.

In the worst case you have the children who think they will be coding COD-MW3 in their first session. Others may totally fail to see the point in programming. Mostly kids will try to touch the monitor and wonder why nothing is happening. The first thing the kids need to get is the point. It's a long game where you can end up producing what you want. Understanding that it's not going to happen straight away is important. Start small.

Forget retro machines as the main focus. By all means have some around but the frustration in saving work etc will put most kids off straight away. Also the slow typing and need to learn a keyword system is an obstacle. So unfortunately I think zx81/spectrum is a tall order, until they're hooked at least. Start with Scratch on the PC. They're starting to teach it in schools now. While I hated it at first I can now really see the benefits of it. My boys took to it straight away. It's not perfect but it's a great place to start. Next though? Well for one of my boys Python seemed a good fit. For the other we're learning 'Processing' together.

Get the 'Code Club' lessons and work through those. They focus on Python, Scratch and HTML. I find them very nicely done on the whole.

So in summary - By all means get a retro machine and enjoy re-living your youth, but in my experience it's not generally something for the kids just yet.

Hope that helps!
C

[sirmorris]

I forgot to say about BASIC - It's a great language for learning but the differences in dialect can confuse. Also the need for line numbering is a chore and not really relevant to languages of today. That said it does lead to easier debugging and editing, if you have more than one kid working on the same example you can easily tell them where to look in the program: line 20, guys!

The BBC micro has the best basic of all the old micros. I don't want to start a holy war - especially on this site but there you go. It's undeniable lol.

You can get BBC BASIC for the PC.

So again I would say that as an enrichment to a kid's education BASIC is great, but it's too far from what they'll learn in schools to be truly useful.

C

[Moggy]

I might be reading it wrong Charlie but I think it's more for himself rather than his children.

[sirmorris]

Well I've got to learn to code at some point in my life.

[RWAP]

I would actually recommend looking at a QL emulator running on a PC - this uses a much enhanced version of Sinclair BASIC which is much more akin to many of the modern programming languages (such as PHP) and certainly a good learning tool, as you learn to create functions and procedures.

It also has the benefit that typing on a PC keyboard is just as you would normally do (whereas the Spectrum and ZX81 rely on specific keys entering a whole keyword, so you need to lookup to work out how to enter the command PRINT into the computer for example).

[RetroTechie]

Welcome to this forum, Paul!

If you'd grab a ZX81 or ZX Spectrum, yes you'll learn a lot about early computers. But very little of what you might learn, will apply to today's computers.

Z80 CPU's aren't used anymore in consumer devices, other 8 bit CPU's only in places that are invisible from a user perspective. Neither is BASIC (that I'm aware of ). Graphics / sound capabilities, memory and storage options are poor even by 20 year old standards. That is, if your retro machine of choice keeps working - chances are you'll spend as much time getting / keeping it in working order, as actually using it.

So I'd go with the "grab a RPi" crowd - generally speaking.

I suggest you think about the kinds of things you'd like to do, and have a look at what languages suit that purpose. For an introduction to general-purpose programming, Python is often recommended, and PyGame seems like a nice environment to start with. If you have web development in mind, then PHP, JavaScript etc may be more suitable. If your interest is embedded systems, low-level hardware projects etc, then C programming + an Arduino may be the way to go. If writing apps / games for mobile phone is your target, have a look at their various Software Development Kits and/or languages used, and a phone or tablet that you can root, so you can slap any OS on it that runs on that hardware.

So in general: things you have in mind -> language(s) -> OS that supports development in those languages -> hardware to run it on.

I do remember the SINCLAIR SPECTRUM from around 1982 as myself and two younger sisters shared (or rather fighted over!) it purely to play GAMES on. But that's as far as any usage we got out of it went (though of course it was amazing FUN at the time!).

So you had access to a ZX Spectrum as a kid, when these things were all new & wonderful, but didn't even 'look under the hood' in the sense of programming? If that's the case, what makes you think this would be interesting NOW?

Something that will start me off so that I can get more confident and understand how computers work in general etc?

To do what? To use them? In that case, learn how to use the UI of your OS of choice. In particular, desktop environment(s) available for that OS. If you're more interested in what's under the hood, a free/libre OS like Linux or BSD-based can provide a great learning experience (Debian fanboy here ). Especially since practically all software + programming tools come for free on such platforms.

And is the LANGUAGE still applicable now, or is it totally outdated and obsolete?#

You mean BASIC or Z80 assembly? Both - totally outdated and obsolete!

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hello Moggy,

I might be reading it wrong Charlie but I think it's more for himself rather than his children.

Thanks for pointing this out! Yes, it is 100% for myself as you kindly remind. The childhood references as such were in relationship to my own personal experiences (or lack of as the case may be!). In fact I have zero children of my own (as yet anyway!), nor do I plan to. lol

Best,

Paul

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hello RWAP,

I would actually recommend looking at a QL emulator running on a PC - this uses a much enhanced version of Sinclair BASIC which is much more akin to many of the modern programming languages (such as PHP) and certainly a good learning tool, as you learn to create functions and procedures.

I had not heard of PHP before ta. Nor QL.

And whilst on the subject, a lot of people (on different forums) use and recommend learning PYTHON (but as stated above, I am totally new to all of this [hard to believe in this day and age I am sure many of you might think!] and so it may be a far too advanced program for a newbie to jump into?).

Ta very much!

Paul

[monsterjazzlicks]

Good evening SirMorris,

Forget retro machines as the main focus. By all means have some around but the frustration in saving work etc will put most kids off straight away. Also the slow typing and need to learn a keyword system is an obstacle. So unfortunately I think zx81/spectrum is a tall order, until they're hooked at least. Start with Scratch on the PC. They're starting to teach it in schools now. While I hated it at first I can now really see the benefits of it. My boys took to it straight away. It's not perfect but it's a great place to start. Next though? Well for one of my boys Python seemed a good fit. For the other we're learning 'Processing' together.

Get the 'Code Club' lessons and work through those. They focus on Python, Scratch and HTML. I find them very nicely done on the whole.

So in summary - By all means get a retro machine and enjoy re-living your youth, but in my experience it's not generally something for the kids just yet.

Well as I say, I did use the SPECTRUM for 2/3 years (albeit exclusively for gaming!) and so I am (from memory) familiar with the aesthetics of the design. And I saw on eBay there is a version which has (or it appears so to me) a normal plastic keyboard and a built-n cassette player (I am sure you know the model I am refering to here).

However, if I do need to download software (as I think you are implying) and install it on my PC to use/practice/learn, then I would certainly need help and advice with this avenue.

Much appreciated,

Paul