[Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
One possibility I didn't consider was that some chip was draining too much current.
Looking around on the internet I found that sometimes the SN94459 is failing this way, so I ordered a replacement (original LM1889).
Desoldering it didn't change the voltage 12V so I proceeded removing all the Lower DRAM chips.
In this condition, the 12V rail is around 11.4V, that seems good. So probably there is some RAM chip gone.
Anyway, having the diagnostic ROM running, I should hear a beep from the speaker, even if NO lower ram is present, right?
But no sound.
So I tested the ULA and the EEPROM in a known good board, and both seems to work fine.
I finally removed the 74HCT257 at IC13, to Isolate the upper RAM, avoiding conflicts between lower and upper ram in case something is wrong. No change at all.
So the only thing remaining to be tested is the CPU. It's a NEC D780C-1.
Any thought before I waste other money ?
Here are a few screenshots.
thanks
Looking around on the internet I found that sometimes the SN94459 is failing this way, so I ordered a replacement (original LM1889).
Desoldering it didn't change the voltage 12V so I proceeded removing all the Lower DRAM chips.
In this condition, the 12V rail is around 11.4V, that seems good. So probably there is some RAM chip gone.
Anyway, having the diagnostic ROM running, I should hear a beep from the speaker, even if NO lower ram is present, right?
But no sound.
So I tested the ULA and the EEPROM in a known good board, and both seems to work fine.
I finally removed the 74HCT257 at IC13, to Isolate the upper RAM, avoiding conflicts between lower and upper ram in case something is wrong. No change at all.
So the only thing remaining to be tested is the CPU. It's a NEC D780C-1.
Any thought before I waste other money ?
Here are a few screenshots.
thanks
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[Plus / 4B] 12V and purple border
I tested the CPU waveforms and they seem ok. There's a good clock, good \IRQ, no reset/nmi/wait/halt ... everything seems normal.
I've disabled the upper ram by connecting pin 5 of IC23 to VCC. no CAS signal to the upper ram, good.
So I'm banging my head, I'm unable to see where the problem is. Eager to test the replacement for the video chip, but still I'd expect the diag rom to output some sound from the missing RAM... no signals at all, the base of TR7 seems correctly polarised (around 2.5V).
So... back to the issue with the voltages.
I have removed all the lower ram chip, and the voltage on +12V rail is pretty ok.
The issue is that I cannot explain why if I put some "known good" ram chip, the voltage drops.
With one chip the voltage is around 11V but with two chips it drops below 10.8V and the SN94459N chip starts loose the colors.
Since this Speccy seems to have experienced a severe power issue, I suspect there's still something to fix in the power rail, especially on 12V.
My primary suspected are D15 and D17. I have checked both and they seems ok (0.6V forward and Open Circuit reversed) but I haven't anything else remaining.
Any clue? Thank you in advance.
I've disabled the upper ram by connecting pin 5 of IC23 to VCC. no CAS signal to the upper ram, good.
So I'm banging my head, I'm unable to see where the problem is. Eager to test the replacement for the video chip, but still I'd expect the diag rom to output some sound from the missing RAM... no signals at all, the base of TR7 seems correctly polarised (around 2.5V).
So... back to the issue with the voltages.
I have removed all the lower ram chip, and the voltage on +12V rail is pretty ok.
The issue is that I cannot explain why if I put some "known good" ram chip, the voltage drops.
With one chip the voltage is around 11V but with two chips it drops below 10.8V and the SN94459N chip starts loose the colors.
Since this Speccy seems to have experienced a severe power issue, I suspect there's still something to fix in the power rail, especially on 12V.
My primary suspected are D15 and D17. I have checked both and they seems ok (0.6V forward and Open Circuit reversed) but I haven't anything else remaining.
Any clue? Thank you in advance.
- 1024MAK
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
There is still definitely something wrong with the section of the DC/DC converter that produces the +12V.
Items to check / test / replace are: C78/C80 (22µF), C44, D15 and D17. The two electrolytic capacitors are critical. In both value, polarity and being good quality.
Did you replace TR5?
The bleeper transistor, TR7 is supplied from the +9V (nominal) rail. NOT the +5V as shown on most schematic diagrams. Do you hear sound from the speaker if you feed audio in on the ear input?
If not items to check / test / replace are: D9, D13 and TR7.
Mark
Items to check / test / replace are: C78/C80 (22µF), C44, D15 and D17. The two electrolytic capacitors are critical. In both value, polarity and being good quality.
Did you replace TR5?
The bleeper transistor, TR7 is supplied from the +9V (nominal) rail. NOT the +5V as shown on most schematic diagrams. Do you hear sound from the speaker if you feed audio in on the ear input?
If not items to check / test / replace are: D9, D13 and TR7.
Mark
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Yes, there's absolutely something wrong. C80 has been changed with all other capacitors, I changed D15 and D17 today with BYV27-200, this is an ultrafast diodes with 2A maximum average forward current. The original BA157 are 400V, but it shouldn't be a big issue except for reliability.1024MAK wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:25 am There is still definitely something wrong with the section of the DC/DC converter that produces the +12V.
Items to check / test / replace are: C78/C80 (22µF), C44, D15 and D17. The two electrolytic capacitors are critical. In both value, polarity and being good quality.
Did you replace TR5?
TR5 and TR4 has been changed as first, with BC557 and ZTX651 respectively.
(in the meantime, happycactus double checked these information and... ta-da!)
While double checking the information (indeed... double checking for the 4th time) I wanted to be 100% sure of the setup. I wasn't 100% sure that the problem was in the output part of the DC/DC 12V converter. It's a feedback system. If it was, I should see the "error" amplifier of the system (TR5) try to "pump"more energy in the output branch, i.e. larger and larger pulses through TR4/C80.
but this wasn't the case. It seemed that the system was settled around am equilibrium point. This is a 1st order system (P), this means that the command (pulse width) is proportional to the error (Vout - vref) In this case, Vref is 5V-Vbe.
But TR5 was new and the feedback resistor network was ok (1k/2.8k)... unless... I double checked for the 4th time how TR5 was installed with a reference -- currently working speccy... and it was ok. So I decided to check the connections, checking the datasheets, both BC557 and ztx212... and............. TR5 was soldered with Emitter and Collector exchanged! On BOTH machines!!! DAMN!
So the Vcb of TR5 was HIGHER than the expected Vbe resulting in a lower amplification and with a lower reference voltage (base of TR5)! for this reason, higher current required on 12V resulted in higher Vcb and lower reference. and lower Vout.
I fixed the TR5 installation and indeed with 6 RAM chips there are 11.8V on 12V output!
I fixed the TR5 even in the other machine, it worked correctly even with the wrong orientation of TR5 but the voltage was a bit low (around 11V) so I didn't notice the mistake.
Now both voltages are ok. Hurrah!
Unfortunately it seems the board is still not working properly. I took the occasion to test all my remaining DRAM chips on the working speccy and found 2 bad chips, all others are ok.
So I have 6 working chips on the faulty board but still the image isn't ok. The border has wrong colors (purple and sometimes others), and background is messy while I'd expect to see 3/4 of the correct Diag ROM screen (tested the rom on the other with only 6 chips), no sounds, nothing.
Last thing I'll check tomorrow is to exchange the ULAs. I suspect that the fauly speccy has a bad ULA (due to bad colors of the border) but it's also possible that the CPU is faulty. I'd prefer this one (I have a new Z80) but I'm skeptical.
Thank you for the hints! I'll be back soon with news, hopefully.
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Funnily enough, I was thinking about asking which transistor you had used and which way round you had fitted it… But you sounded very confident! I do often ‘bang on’ about most replacements having a different lead-out…
The diagnostic ROM requires the Z80 to be operational, along with the address, control and data busses to be okay. However, the Z80 does need the 3.5MHz clock from the ULA. The ULA also does the address decoding for the ROM. And obviously if you want to see anything on screen with respect to the border being under control of the test ROM, the ULA needs to be able to detect I/O writes to the register that has the border control bits.
For the main part of the screen, as well as the “lower’ DRAM, both multiplexer chips need to be present and working. And these are also controlled by the ULA.
If the ULA is in a socket and you have another ULA, the fastest way is to swap the ULAs. Even better if you have another working Speccy, as you can put the suspect ULA in it, to test it.
Mark
The diagnostic ROM requires the Z80 to be operational, along with the address, control and data busses to be okay. However, the Z80 does need the 3.5MHz clock from the ULA. The ULA also does the address decoding for the ROM. And obviously if you want to see anything on screen with respect to the border being under control of the test ROM, the ULA needs to be able to detect I/O writes to the register that has the border control bits.
For the main part of the screen, as well as the “lower’ DRAM, both multiplexer chips need to be present and working. And these are also controlled by the ULA.
If the ULA is in a socket and you have another ULA, the fastest way is to swap the ULAs. Even better if you have another working Speccy, as you can put the suspect ULA in it, to test it.
Mark
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Hey Mark!
Thank you for your comment.
Of course I was so confident it was ok: I had checked it with my other working Issue 4A and it was oriented the same way! My luck was that last time I wanted to check it, it was reassembled and closed, and I didn't want to open it again!
Today I did some more investigation.
I exchanged the two ULAs and they worked as expected, they are both ok in the working Issue4A but they fail both on the board under test.
So next things to check are: Logic, in particular IC3 and IC4 (demux), TR6.
I still have doubts about the upper ram, I disabled it by forcing the \CAS low but this works if both the logic and the upper ram work.
Anyway, last thing to check is the CPU. Also we must be sure the ROM can be accessed from the CPU. It seems not easy but I think we can make some reasoning.
My first idea was to use my logic analyser (a Labnation's smartscope) to check each chip, this requires some decoding module (it can be written in .NET). I had just the time to test some gate of IC23, and it seems to work, though there might be some issue if the signals are too slow. I'm not sure how to interpret this... I'll see it later in the upcoming week.
As you suggested, it was interesting to check if the ULA is able to receive the commands from the CPU. This means to check \IOREQ from the CPU and the \IOREQ in the ULA. They are not the same signal, due to TR6. If I understand correctly, TR6 do fix a bug in the ULA, and \IOREQ in the ULA is active if and only if BOTH \IOREQ from the CPU and A0 are low. So it was important to check both signals. if \IOREQ on the ULA is never active, while it is on the CPU side, this means TR6 is failing.
And I found something really interesting. Well, I had 5 out of 8 lower DRAM chips populated, IC6 to IC10, while IC11 to 13 are unpopulated. With that setup I was able to see both signals, \IOREQ on CPU side and on ULA side. As expected, sometimes (with A0 HIGH) \IOREQ on ULA side is NOT active /H even if \IOREQ on cpu side is LOW. This means two things: TR6 works correctly and CPU is executing some program. Indeed I noticed some low pulse on \IOREQ every few seconds, as it should do a Diag ROM (remember it buzz the speaker to signal if a dram chip is failing or not).
So can we deduce the ROM is working as expected? it seems reasonable to me.
The other interesting and surprising part is that if I move a chip and populate IC13, 12 or 11 the pulses are not visible anymore. This was reproducible. So i found that some of the socket may have some bad contact. I checked it and after some working at least IC11 and 12 are fixed. I haven't tested IC13 still. Not sure how to interpret this, maybe something related to A0? I don't know.
Last thing to check is the logic. IC3 seems ok, I had a quick look to 2 out of 4 selectors and seems ok, nothin obvious. I need to check IC4. Last to check are IC25 and IC26 (but that shouldn't be a problem, if they fails), More important are IC23, IC24 and the Upper RAM.
IC4 is the perfect candidate for the problem I'm seeing. I noticed that while IC3 is a LS157, IC4, IC25 and IC26 are 74HCT257. Short of the LS/HCT difference (does it matter? Idk), there shouldn't be any difference, \E is always LOW so outputs are never in Z state and they should behave like LS157... right?
So I think I'll probably stop here with the investigation and blindly change IC3 and IC4 with two HCT157 or 257.
Ah, the clock is mostly ok. I say mostly because while in logic mode the oscilloscope shows some bounce. I don't know how to interpret this, but it could be also the instrument.
Bye and thank you
Thank you for your comment.
Of course I was so confident it was ok: I had checked it with my other working Issue 4A and it was oriented the same way! My luck was that last time I wanted to check it, it was reassembled and closed, and I didn't want to open it again!
Today I did some more investigation.
I exchanged the two ULAs and they worked as expected, they are both ok in the working Issue4A but they fail both on the board under test.
So next things to check are: Logic, in particular IC3 and IC4 (demux), TR6.
I still have doubts about the upper ram, I disabled it by forcing the \CAS low but this works if both the logic and the upper ram work.
Anyway, last thing to check is the CPU. Also we must be sure the ROM can be accessed from the CPU. It seems not easy but I think we can make some reasoning.
My first idea was to use my logic analyser (a Labnation's smartscope) to check each chip, this requires some decoding module (it can be written in .NET). I had just the time to test some gate of IC23, and it seems to work, though there might be some issue if the signals are too slow. I'm not sure how to interpret this... I'll see it later in the upcoming week.
As you suggested, it was interesting to check if the ULA is able to receive the commands from the CPU. This means to check \IOREQ from the CPU and the \IOREQ in the ULA. They are not the same signal, due to TR6. If I understand correctly, TR6 do fix a bug in the ULA, and \IOREQ in the ULA is active if and only if BOTH \IOREQ from the CPU and A0 are low. So it was important to check both signals. if \IOREQ on the ULA is never active, while it is on the CPU side, this means TR6 is failing.
And I found something really interesting. Well, I had 5 out of 8 lower DRAM chips populated, IC6 to IC10, while IC11 to 13 are unpopulated. With that setup I was able to see both signals, \IOREQ on CPU side and on ULA side. As expected, sometimes (with A0 HIGH) \IOREQ on ULA side is NOT active /H even if \IOREQ on cpu side is LOW. This means two things: TR6 works correctly and CPU is executing some program. Indeed I noticed some low pulse on \IOREQ every few seconds, as it should do a Diag ROM (remember it buzz the speaker to signal if a dram chip is failing or not).
So can we deduce the ROM is working as expected? it seems reasonable to me.
The other interesting and surprising part is that if I move a chip and populate IC13, 12 or 11 the pulses are not visible anymore. This was reproducible. So i found that some of the socket may have some bad contact. I checked it and after some working at least IC11 and 12 are fixed. I haven't tested IC13 still. Not sure how to interpret this, maybe something related to A0? I don't know.
Last thing to check is the logic. IC3 seems ok, I had a quick look to 2 out of 4 selectors and seems ok, nothin obvious. I need to check IC4. Last to check are IC25 and IC26 (but that shouldn't be a problem, if they fails), More important are IC23, IC24 and the Upper RAM.
IC4 is the perfect candidate for the problem I'm seeing. I noticed that while IC3 is a LS157, IC4, IC25 and IC26 are 74HCT257. Short of the LS/HCT difference (does it matter? Idk), there shouldn't be any difference, \E is always LOW so outputs are never in Z state and they should behave like LS157... right?
So I think I'll probably stop here with the investigation and blindly change IC3 and IC4 with two HCT157 or 257.
Ah, the clock is mostly ok. I say mostly because while in logic mode the oscilloscope shows some bounce. I don't know how to interpret this, but it could be also the instrument.
Bye and thank you
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Err, /CAS should be held high to correctly disable the ‘upper’ DRAM…happycactus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:21 pm I still have doubts about the upper ram, I disabled it by forcing the \CAS low but this works if both the logic and the upper ram work.
I’ll repost my comments from another topic...
1024MAK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:59 pm To disable the "upper" 32k of RAM, take a piece of wire and connect pin 5 on IC23 (a 74LS32) to +5V. (link).
I suggest you make a temporary solder connection with an SPST on/off switch in series. Start with the switch set to on. Then if you get to the copyright screen and BASIC works, after that, you can turn the switch off so that some simple BASIC commands can access and therefore test the upper RAM.
This is done because the ROM code tries to see how much RAM there is at start-up. After this, the BASIC ROM will ignore any RAM that is not present (or in this case, is disabled)(well, unless you reset the limits using CLEAR n). But the BASIC POKE and PEEK commands have no limits and work across the whole Z80 address range.
Double and triple check that you have the correct pin on the correct chip, or you WILL damage something. This temporary modification will disable the "upper" RAM (when the switch is ON), as the CAS signal won't reach the RAM chips.
Note that if a faulty DRAM IC is jamming one of the data lines, this won't really help.
74LS157 chips became mostly obsolete. 74HCTxxx logic chips are specifically designed to work with 74 series TTL logic levels, and hence for normal digital circuitry, (in most cases) are a suitable replacement for 74LSxxx logic chips.happycactus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:21 pm IC4 is the perfect candidate for the problem I'm seeing. I noticed that while IC3 is a LS157, IC4, IC25 and IC26 are 74HCT257. Short of the LS/HCT difference (does it matter? Idk), there shouldn't be any difference, \E is always LOW so outputs are never in Z state and they should behave like LS157... right?
So I think I'll probably stop here with the investigation and blindly change IC3 and IC4 with two HCT157 or 257.
link to the referenced quote.1024MAK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:46 pm A 74LS257 can replace a 74LS157. See the datasheet. And in a circuit designed for a 74LS157, you can use a 74LS157 to replace a 74LS257.
74HCTxxx can replace 74LSxxx in most designs.
74HCxx should not be used in systems using TTL logic levels, as they have different input switching thresholds.
The original series were 7400 etc.
Then various types were produced, but 74LSxxx became the most common, as they were lower power than the 7400 series, but just as fast.
These have, for the most part, been superseded by low power CMOS versions. Hence your board having the 74HCTxxx which are CMOS versions that are compatible with TTL switching levels.
Having said that, my bad for not noticing that your board has 74HCT257 chips
Mark
I hope this helps
Mark
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Yes, my bad. I followed that comment carefully. I forced it HIGH.1024MAK wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:00 amErr, /CAS should be held high to correctly disable the ‘upper’ DRAM…happycactus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:21 pm I still have doubts about the upper ram, I disabled it by forcing the \CAS low but this works if both the logic and the upper ram work.
I’ll repost my comments from another topic...
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
Ok I changed all 4 LS157 with 74HCT257.
Unfortunately they are of different types and brands, 2 are SN74HCT257 and 2 are CD74HCT257 from two different brands. The difference shouldn't matter, just a small difference in the input levels, especially in the HIGH level (2Vmin vs 3Vmin)... but I hope it doesn't matter, I put CD as IC25 and IC26 and SN for IC3 and IC4. Damn.
Unfortunately this didn't fix.
Next I'm going to change LS32 and LS00 just to be 100% on the safe side... but I'm skeptical.
Frankly I'm a bit depressed. Last thing to change is the CPU.
Unfortunately they are of different types and brands, 2 are SN74HCT257 and 2 are CD74HCT257 from two different brands. The difference shouldn't matter, just a small difference in the input levels, especially in the HIGH level (2Vmin vs 3Vmin)... but I hope it doesn't matter, I put CD as IC25 and IC26 and SN for IC3 and IC4. Damn.
Unfortunately this didn't fix.
Next I'm going to change LS32 and LS00 just to be 100% on the safe side... but I'm skeptical.
Frankly I'm a bit depressed. Last thing to change is the CPU.
- 1024MAK
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Re: [Plus / 4B] Power Issue (fried TR4)
I think CD74HCT257 were originally made by the Harris Semiconductor company, but they are now both Texas Instruments products:happycactus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:39 pm Unfortunately they are of different types and brands, 2 are SN74HCT257 and 2 are CD74HCT257 from two different brands.
https://www.ti.com/product/SN74HCT257
https://www.ti.com/product/CD74HCT257
They should be equivalent. But please note that there is a comment in the service manual about one make of 74LS157 that should be avoided. IIRC that was National Semiconductor.
Gotta go now. Will be back later.
Mark
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